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In defense of the gosh-darn owl that everyone has been trying to label a Mary Sue: I'll bet he came from the land of "Legend of the Guardians" meets "Harry Potter" and has been trained in dragon fighting and is on the lam and came to Equestria to escape and to rest for a while. THERE. And it's a little hard for a character whose vocabulary consists of "Who?" to reveal character faults right off the bat.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 15:53:19 UTC from web-
@libbylishly People are calling the owl a Mary Sue? Man, even on the internet I don't get out enough...
Monday, 25-Apr-11 15:59:26 UTC from web-
@scribus Apparently. I picked that up as hearsay from Equestria Forums. They were also trying to label Dash as a Mary Sue after the episode directly before. Seriously? I don't think they even know what the term means.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:01:22 UTC from web-
@libbylishly I'd agree with that. I've seen Fluttershy, Twilight, and Dash all been labeled as Mary Sues. REALLY? They all gave such definite and developed personalities, I don't know how anypony could pull that term unless they had no idea what it meant.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:05:47 UTC from StatusNet Android-
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:07:20 UTC from StatusNet Android
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Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:09:44 UTC from web
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@scribus Well, it's not so much about self-insert as it is about EVERYTHING IS PERFECT AND THEY CAN DO NO WRONG or THEIR SPECIAL TALENT WORKS ON ANYONE AND EVERYONE NO EXCEPTIONS EVAR or just having one character who resolves everyone else's problems by simply existing. Owlicious/Aloysius comes pretty close to fitting the last one, but he's also causing problems by sticking around. (And being limited to a vocabulary of "who" is a pretty big character flaw, I'd think.) Most of the problems that were picked for him to solve were things that would work for pretty much any bird, and not just that particular character. So it doesn't really fit the Sue trope that much.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:14:31 UTC from web-
@retl #ooc Well, a majority of OCs are self inserts of some kind. But the good OCs might have some self insertish tendencies, but are, on their own, a unique character.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:15:53 UTC from web-
@fialvert Yeah, that's where I was driving towards, but you got there before I finished writing the second part. XD It'd awfully hard for a person to make up a character that isn't at least partially drawn from their own experiences and life. Because it'd be hard to puzzle through how they would behave if there's no familiarity with such a personality. It's not inserts that are a problem, nor is an insert an automatic Mary-Sue. It's more about the balance and blend of tropes.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:19:03 UTC from web
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@retl @scribus Fanfic self-insert tends to be a pretty common usage of this trope, admittedly. I say that the ponies in question are no more Mary Sues than Hermione Granger or Kim Possible or (insert just about any well-known character who comes under fire for this here). It's true that Aloysius did come close to the definition, but I agree with Retl's assessment of the situation. Seriously, if i see this accusation used incorrectly one more time someone is going to get hurt.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:21:13 UTC from web
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@scribus self-insert OCs can be a problem for other reasons, though. Mainly for the tendency for people to Mary-sue them up for their entertainment (tends to fit a lot with teen and earlier writers), but also because of the tendency for them to feel out of place in the universe (when certain key tropes that make a character tick get brought into a universe where those tropes don't quite make sense.) and the tendency to make the character the focus of what they're inserting them into (but that's kinda why one makes a character at all).
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:16:51 UTC from web-
@retl I think another point of the Mary Sue is the character has to be just blank-slate enough that the readers can also kind of "paint" themselves into the character. It's sort of a feel-good thing.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:21:42 UTC from StatusNet Android -
@retl That's a much more comprehensive explanation. And it makes everyone's accusations look that much less reasonable. :p heh
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:22:05 UTC from web -
@retl Gah, now i'm having trouble keeping up. Right; as a general rule, people don't read fanfics to read about the adventures of people's OCs in a well-known universe, especially if it's clearly just a wish-fulfillment creation for the writer. It's fine to self-insert yourself, but be honest about your faults and for the love of God don't make yourself flawless... or have some stupid little flaw like "I don't think I'm pretty even though all these guys are falling for me" (Bella, from Twilight... but that's less Mary Sue and more This Character Sucketh). But i think that's what you were getting at. XD
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:25:46 UTC from web-
@libbylishly actually I think Bella is the gold standard of Mary Sue. See also Oatmeal's review of Twilight. (Oatmeal? Twilight? Jeez...)
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:28:47 UTC from StatusNet Android-
@starshine YAY, I'm so glad I'm not alone in being able to Not Stand Bella... I heistate to label most characters as Mary Sues if they have any kind of development at all and haven't read all the books to find out if Bella does, but i might take your word for it. ;) Do you have a link, perchance, to said review? ((is not familiar with Oatmeal but this sounds awesome))
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:32:36 UTC from web
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@libbylishly "as a general rule, people don't read fanfics to read about the adventures of people's OCs in a well-known universe, especially if it's clearly just a wish-fulfillment creation for the writer." This. :3 Yeah, you got what I was getting at.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:32:01 UTC from web
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@starshine Fluttershy? Fluttershy a Mary Sue?! Wow. Just wow.
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:21:54 UTC from web-
@libbylishly I know, right. Then again people also claim that FiM is for little girls :D
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:26:08 UTC from StatusNet Android-
@starshine HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA... excellent point. ;) Clearly, people are just stupid and we can leave it at that. XD
Monday, 25-Apr-11 16:28:13 UTC from web
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